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Work progress - 0.9.7.2
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Thursday, 12.06.2014, 13:30 | Message # 286 |
 World Builder
Group: SE team
France
Messages: 1016
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| One alternative is to generate a shadow map. It could be possible with a shader.
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| Aerospacefag | Date: Thursday, 12.06.2014, 14:13 | Message # 287 |
 Pioneer
Group: Users
Russian Federation
Messages: 401
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| Salvo, I guess that's a real problem, working real time shadows is as resource-consuming as landscape generating.
Voekoevaka, shadow maps are only useful for static lighting, not the dynamic one like in SE. Well, maybe in interiors of spaceships...
SpaceEngineer, so, I guess, the current lighting system is already very complex and I even noticed some bugs in it. The situation is, some places like brown dwarf systems, may sometimes have as much as 5 light sources - which is an asteroid satellite, a planet, another planet or satellite nearby, a brown dwarf itself and a second component in binary star. With this, the situation is really complex and some bugs may happen, as my observation show me. No, actually, that is not an important issue, they are not really that easy to notice most of the time, unless the major source of light disappears.
But with that in mind, any system of real dynamic mapping is out of question.
On the other hand, let's return to the asteroids. They are really small, and their surface is considerably curved, so there's always a part of the landscape on terminator, that are really , in the shadow of the mountain, and sun shouldn't be able to reach there, but they are brightly lit and very confusing to observe.
Finally, if there's a sunset on the planet, then we have similar problems - even if the sun is lower than local horizon, some surfaces remain quite bright. It looks a bit like the sky itself is shining, but I know that this system is not currently supported. In reality, the landscape at the horizon should obscure most of the light, casting long shadows, but that is not possible to imagine without dynamic lighting.
Actually, I want to clarify - it is only a suggestion, it's not like I think that you don't know about this issue, I just want to know your opinion or if you're going to resolve that somehow in the future.
Edited by Aerospacefag - Thursday, 12.06.2014, 14:16 |
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Thursday, 12.06.2014, 14:54 | Message # 288 |
 Author of Space Engine
Group: Administrators
Russian Federation
Messages: 4800
Status: Offline
| You all wrong 
Shadow mapping is a technique what uses render the scene depth to a special texture (called shadow map) form the point where light source is located. After this, this texture is used in the scene render pass to determine whether pixel is in the shadow. Using of shadow map texture is only possible in the shader. So:
- shadows of course uses shaders (as I said, all render in modern OpenGL is done throug shaders);
- shadow mapping don't depend on geometry complexity, it drops fps of course but not so significantly;
- shadow mapping is useful for dynamic lights.
Aerospacefag, I guess you mix shadow mapping with lightmaps what is indeed only for static lights.
Currently in SE any dynamic object (planet or spaceship) can use up to 4 light sources. As long as SE engine uses forward rendering pipeline, its performance linear depends on number of light sources, so adding new light is a bad idea. When I rewite engine to use deferred rendering, it would be possible to use hundreds of local lights. But number of global lights (sun/moon) will still be limited, because they must use atmospheric scattering effect, what is quite complex and slow (you may notice that airless planets shows better performance).
Shadows are still don't implemented in SE. I delay it for deferred rendering too. But SE uses "fake" shadows on sunset - it is a simple calculation of occluding of the sunlight by the spherical body of a planet. It makes illusion of "incorrect shadows" at sunset, but it is still better than nothing - without this system you might see lighted mountain peaks even at night side of the planet.
SE also have its own "precise" eclipse shadow technique. Eclipse shadows are calculated directly in the planet's (and ship's!) pixel shaders ad give much more accurate and artefactless shadows (umbra and penumbra!) what shadow maps can give. It will be used together with shadow maps in the future. Shadow maps are still needed for shadows of irregular bodeis like asteroid-like moons.
Rings shadows are implemented in similar way - they computed directly in the rendering shader. Future versions will take into account rings from any planet, not only from ring host. Ie Saturn's moons will receive shadows from Saturn rings.
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| Watsisname | Date: Friday, 13.06.2014, 23:27 | Message # 289 |
 Galaxy Architect
Group: Global Moderators
United States
Messages: 2613
Status: Offline
| I don't think that qualifies as simple -- that's a five hour rendition made using Blender. Not exactly practical in the real-time rendering system of Space Engine.
Looks nice though.
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| DoctorOfSpace | Date: Saturday, 14.06.2014, 05:06 | Message # 290 |
 Galaxy Architect
Group: Global Moderators
Pirate
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| Quote Watsisname (  ) Looks nice though.
If you wanted any sort of fluid dynamics in SE you would need to do a system similar to From Dust and that would be difficult to code.
Maybe in the far future of SE we will see something close to this.
Intel Core i7-5820K 4.2GHz 6-Core Processor
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EVGA GTX 980 Ti SC 6GB
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| FastFourierTransform | Date: Saturday, 14.06.2014, 13:15 | Message # 291 |
 Pioneer
Group: Local Moderators
Spain
Messages: 542
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| Quote Watsisname ( ) I don't think that qualifies as simple -- that's a five hour rendition made using Blender.
You are totally right
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| JoeCapricorn | Date: Saturday, 14.06.2014, 21:29 | Message # 292 |
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Observer
Group: Users
United States
Messages: 14
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| Those nightside images of Io look amazing!
Could this mean we might have rocky planets that orbit so close to their parent star that the nightside is glowing from seas of molten lava? Or otherwise highly volcanic worlds?
Might that even be a new planet class? Io is designated as a selena, but it is neither a selena, icy world or desert. There could be other Ios out there, both from tidal heating and from intense stellar heat.
Are we going to see any new planet classes in 0.9.7.2? I remember reading an article about a new class of planets being discovered called Gas Dwarfs, as well as a rocky planet that is more or less a Rock Giant (or Superterra).
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| Rodrigo | Date: Sunday, 15.06.2014, 16:47 | Message # 293 |
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Explorer
Group: Local Moderators
Brazil
Messages: 285
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| Will young planets appear like those lava planets you showed us? That could be used as location based (really close to stars) or age based (young systems).
Also, those young systems could have some sort of disk or nebula associated with it :P
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| Sanocon | Date: Tuesday, 17.06.2014, 01:17 | Message # 294 |
 Space Tourist
Group: Users
United States
Messages: 33
Status: Offline
| Quote SpaceEngineer ( ) You all wrong smile
Shadow mapping is a technique what uses render the scene depth to a special texture (called shadow map) form the point where light source is located. After this, this texture is used in the scene render pass to determine whether pixel is in the shadow. Using of shadow map texture is only possible in the shader. So:
- shadows of course uses shaders (as I said, all render in modern OpenGL is done throug shaders);
- shadow mapping don't depend on geometry complexity, it drops fps of course but not so significantly;
- shadow mapping is useful for dynamic lights.
Shadows are still don't implemented in SE. I delay it for deferred rendering too. But SE uses "fake" shadows on sunset - it is a simple calculation of occluding of the sunlight by the spherical body of a planet. It makes illusion of "incorrect shadows" at sunset, but it is still better than nothing - without this system you might see lighted mountain peaks even at night side of the planet.
what version of Opengl do you use? My mind is stuck in 1.4 through 2.0 thanks to Blender. (though my pc can handle opengl 4.4) and I was wondering what the offical term for shadow mapping was (prior to this i called it just 'shadows') thanks for this info.
also, im makes sense why your waiting to create shadow maps till you switch to deferred rendering. although make sure to have an option to install a foward render or diferred render version for the low end pcs.
Edited by Sanocon - Tuesday, 17.06.2014, 01:36 |
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Tuesday, 17.06.2014, 08:15 | Message # 295 |
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Author of Space Engine
Group: Administrators
Russian Federation
Messages: 4800
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| Quote Sanocon ( ) what version of Opengl do you use?
Unlike DirectX, OPenGL allows to use features from different versions simultaneuosly. So I used features from GL 1.4 to GL 3.3 and maybe higher. I gradually removing older version code and replace it with modern techniques, because this improves performance (even on low-spec PCs) and simply makes the code more accurate and modern. Deferred shading will make the code very clear, small and fast (at least atmosphere rendering will have huge boost), greatly reduces number of shaders used, making adding new features very easy. For example, now I stuck at lava and night side lights so long because huge number of material combinations - all of them must be implemented in a single forward-pass shaders. In order to reduce number of shaders I trying to implement "universal" lighting material - which combine night lights (city/bio), permanent lights, constant thermal emission (lava) and thermal emission driven by solar heat (hot lava planets). This is not easy task, and obviously one complex material will have lower performance than four simple.
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| Sanocon | Date: Tuesday, 17.06.2014, 21:20 | Message # 296 |
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Space Tourist
Group: Users
United States
Messages: 33
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| Quote SpaceEngineer ( ) Deferred shading will make the code very clear, small and fast (at least atmosphere rendering will have huge boost), greatly reduces number of shaders used, making adding new features very easy.
will deferred shading also increase the fps when around a nebula? my nvidia 740m can handle everything but i get a major fps drop when inside a nebula.
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| Zaddy23 | Date: Wednesday, 18.06.2014, 05:55 | Message # 297 |
 Space Pilot
Group: Users
Australia
Messages: 129
Status: Offline
| Those lava planets... Those heat lights... so beautiful...
I cri evrytiem 
Along with fezes and bowties, brown dwarves are cool.
Edited by Zaddy23 - Wednesday, 18.06.2014, 05:58 |
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| Salvo | Date: Wednesday, 18.06.2014, 11:06 | Message # 298 |
 Star Engineer
Group: Local Moderators
Italy
Messages: 1400
Status: Offline
| Quote Zaddy23 ( ) I cri evrytiem
Me too
Quote SpaceEngineer ( ) Deferred shading ... fast
I know Deffered Shading is much "better" than Forward or Vertex-Lit, what actually changes visually?
The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.
CPU: Intel Core i7 4770 GPU: ASUS Radeon R9 270 RAM: 8 GBs
(still don't know why everyone is doing this...)
Edited by Salvo - Wednesday, 18.06.2014, 11:06 |
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Wednesday, 18.06.2014, 12:56 | Message # 299 |
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Author of Space Engine
Group: Administrators
Russian Federation
Messages: 4800
Status: Offline
| Quote Salvo ( ) what actually changes visually?
No z-fighting, atmosphere scattering on ships models, hundreds of local lights (engines, radiators, lightning, volcano), SSAO, reflections and refraction, perfect 3D water, volumetric clouds and particle effects with smooth intersection with landscape, interplanetary dust and accretion disks with proper blending with planets...
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| JCandeias | Date: Wednesday, 18.06.2014, 14:52 | Message # 300 |
 Pioneer
Group: Translators
Portugal
Messages: 387
Status: Offline
| Quote SpaceEngineer ( ) No z-fighting, atmosphere scattering on ships models, hundreds of local lights (engines, radiators, lightning, volcano), SSAO, reflections and refraction, perfect 3D water, volumetric clouds and particle effects with smooth intersection with landscape, interplanetary dust and accretion disks with proper blending with planets...
Aaand I'm drooling. Abundantly. I'm drowning in my own saliva.
OK, just one question: WHEN?
(I know, I know - it's done when it's done. But I wanna!)
They let me use this!
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