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Work progress 0.9.7.1
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| JCandeias | Date: Monday, 09.12.2013, 19:06 | Message # 511 |
 Pioneer
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Portugal
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| Diffraction spikes don't depend on the nature of the objects: they depend on the strength of the light emitted (or reflected) by them. They happen when the light is so intense that it kind of "bleeds out" of the source, in patterns that depend on the optics you use. So planets can and do cause diffraction spikes in the real world.
This said, though, I do agree that sometimes, when planetary objects are already showing a disc, diffraction spikes in SE tend to become a bit strange, usually when the disc itself is seen behind the spike as a not so bright object.
This said, on the other hand, please don't go meddling with these details now, Vladimir. We just can't wait for the new version.
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Edited by JCandeias - Monday, 09.12.2013, 19:06 |
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| Disasterpiece | Date: Monday, 09.12.2013, 20:58 | Message # 512 |
 World Builder
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| Quote SpaceEngineer (  ) Just cool (and cold) place
That place looks really nice, do you have coords (for when 0.9.7.1 does release)?
I play teh spase engien
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| Darkcloak | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 18:11 | Message # 513 |
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Astronaut
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| Quote Disasterpiece ( ) That place looks really nice, do you have coords (for when 0.9.7.1 does release)?
I bet there will be all kinds of goodie coordinates in the release.  I do hope the most recently poosted screenshot will be one of the locations. Either way, I'll be happy exploring and finding new stuff.
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 19:03 | Message # 514 |
 World Builder
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France
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| If SpaceEngineer change planet landscape generator before release, this place will be dead.
But don't worry, there are a lot of planets with ice caps, this kind of place should be common.
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| JCandeias | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 19:07 | Message # 515 |
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Pioneer
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| Quote Voekoevaka ( ) If SpaceEngineer change planet landscape generator before release, this place will be dead.
Actually, I'm a bit worried about such changes. He'll have to figure out a way to provide stability between versions before he can churn out his games, otherwise with each new version games will have to be reset, and that wouldn't be good.
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| Darkcloak | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 19:48 | Message # 516 |
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Astronaut
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| Quote Voekoevaka ( ) If SpaceEngineer change planet landscape generator before release, this place will be dead.
Maybe my brain is just fried from working this morning, but could you please elaborate? Now I'm really curious. O_o
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 20:31 | Message # 517 |
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| In every version, there are small tweaks on landscape generator shader, which change the landscape on planet.
But there could be also system generator which can change, and replace objects by new. For example, there was recently a moon generator update, so all old moons no longer exist.
I think changing the generators without changing or destroying the old places is impossible.
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| DeathStar | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 21:23 | Message # 518 |
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Pioneer
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| Quote JCandeias ( ) He'll have to figure out a way to provide stability between versions before he can churn out his games
Honestly, you are expecting too much from him. First of all, SE is a universe generator, which means most of the updates change the way the universe generates. "Providing stability" between these versions is impossible, as every little change in the algorithm will change everything.
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| Darkcloak | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 21:34 | Message # 519 |
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Astronaut
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| Quote Voekoevaka ( ) But there could be also system generator which can change, and replace objects by new. For example, there was recently a moon generator update, so all old moons no longer exist.
Oh, I can see why that might stir things up. That could also keep things fresh though, couldn't it?
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| JCandeias | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 22:29 | Message # 520 |
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| Quote Darkcloak ( ) Honestly, you are expecting too much from him. First of all, SE is a universe generator, which means most of the updates change the way the universe generates. "Providing stability" between these versions is impossible, as every little change in the algorithm will change everything.
The guy is SE's god. He can do anything. 
Seriously, though, you are aware this isn't randomly generated, right?
It's all pseudo-random, with seeds, I think, linked to the coordinates the various objects are at (try changing the position of a catalogue star with procedural planets and see how thoroughly everything changes). Lots and lots and lots of Perlin noise functions, but all of them pseudo-random, not random. So, no, providing stability is not impossible, it's only a matter of making sure the seeds used to generate the same stuff remain the same between versions. I think it's a daunting task, given the complexity of the program, but quite possible. And, more importantly, necessary, perhaps not for the planetary, but to make games. It won't do to have to reset everyone's games everytime an update to the engine is made because the whole universe changes. He'll have to insure compatibility between versions.
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| Disasterpiece | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 22:50 | Message # 521 |
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| I think you're looking a little too far ahead. At this point in time, not all the objects he wants to implement are even in yet. So even if the seed stays the same, each time a new type of object is added the system/object will change. Although I do agree with you about this in the future when people have save-files and online games, updates shouldn't affect the parts of the universe that have been visited.
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 23:16 | Message # 522 |
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| When the engine is (more or less) finished and games are developed, things should stay the same. But right now it's still a beta, a work in progress, and it is unrealistic to think that things can remain the same between versions at this stage of development.
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| DeathStar | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 23:25 | Message # 523 |
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| JCandeias, I am fully aware that the SE universe isn't randomly generated.
Although stuff like terrain detail changes aren't likely to mess up systems, stuff like new moon generation will change the celestial bodies in question.
How are you possibly supposed to get a moon from 0.97 with the new generation? Although it would be possible to pluck it in with the rest of the new moons, I think that that would be extremely time consuming and a pain to program.
Quote JCandeias ( ) So, no, providing stability is not impossible, it's only a matter of making sure the seeds used to generate the same stuff remain the same between versions.
A seed is a number that initiates a pseudorandom number generator, which will then follow a bunch of rules to get certain values and characteristics of the celestial body in question. The problem is, if these rules are changed, the result will be drastically changed as well. Try using a seed in Minecraft 1.7.4 and then the same seed in Minecraft alpha. Will you get the same results? No.
Even if SpaceEngineer implemented it so that the seeds remain the same throughout the versions, you would get a different result since the rules themselves have changed. If he made it so that the same seed would give the same result, then why for heaven's sake would he change them in the first place?
Quote JCandeias ( ) And, more importantly, necessary, perhaps not for the planetary, but to make games. It won't do to have to reset everyone's games everytime an update to the engine is made because the whole universe changes. He'll have to insure compatibility between versions.
Although this is certainly true to an extent, SE is currently a universe generator. Once most of the generation stuff is done (which we are currently quite far away from right now), gameplay will become the central focus and generation updates will probably become much more subtle and less prone to making a mess. But right now SpaceEngineer should focus on new features, not preserving the old planets.
EDIT: Double ninjad...
Edited by DeathStar - Thursday, 12.12.2013, 23:26 |
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| JCandeias | Date: Thursday, 12.12.2013, 23:41 | Message # 524 |
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| Quote HarbingerDawn ( ) I think you're looking a little too far ahead.
I'm a science fiction guy. I look ahead as a way of life.
This said...
Quote Disasterpiece ( ) At this point in time, not all the objects he wants to implement are even in yet. So even if the seed stays the same, each time a new type of object is added the system/object will change.
Yeah, I do agree with you (and HarbingerDawn) here. I don't expect him to have everything stable at this point. Some changes, such as the new moon generator, are very hard to do without changing pretty much everything regarding the current moons.
I do disagree with you on one thing, though: he could keep some stuff stable if he wanted to already. You see, I don't think he has one seed per system, but much, much more than that, so if he wanted to, if he thought he wouldn't be touching some aspects of the generation until that magical 1.0 number is reached, I think he'd already be able to keep those aspects stable between versions. If he doesn't, that tells me one thing: either he doesn't think it'd be worthwile to waste time working on backwards compatibility while there are still major changes to be done, or he doesn't think he's quite done with anything for the time being.
And I do worry. That task to insure compatibility between versions strikes me as a pretty complicated one, given how complex the program is. But I may be wrong: he may have everything planned already.
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Friday, 13.12.2013, 01:31 | Message # 525 |
 Author of Space Engine
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Russian Federation
Messages: 4800
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| Quote JCandeias ( ) But I may be wrong: he may have everything planned already.
Yes I have. At some point, I move all generation code (including shaders) into a library. Then, if I would like to change something in the generation code, I will copy/paste the library, rename it and do changes there. All old generation libraries will stay here forever. In save files (locations) and on the server database, the library version number will be stored. So if engine tries to generate a system that is already in the database, a version of library will be taken and it will be generated with that library.
Another problem will be with procedural stars in a galaxy and procedural galaxies distribution. Changing galaxy textures, models, and some parameters (like radius) will lead to generation of completely different star distribution. The easies way is just ignoring it and do generate systems from database if it not match with location of procedural star. So changing the galaxy texture will just change the constellation pattern viewed from saved system.
The only unresolved problem is changing of procedural objects names (RS 8404-...) after changing the generator or even after adding/removing of catalog objects. Do you remember that in old versions of SE procedural stars in Milky Way had names starting from RS 8404-...? But now they are RS 8403-... because of removal of duplicate of one galaxy. That names do not affect on planetary system generation, because seed is based on coordinates, not a name (like in more old versions). But changing of names will destroy the database. For real galaxies we may use alternate names: replace "RS 8404-768-xxx" with "Milky Way 768-xxx", but this will not work for procedural galaxies, which have procedural number themselves.
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