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Tesla Motors
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| desertsoldier22 | Date: Monday, 17.03.2014, 09:00 | Message # 61 |
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Astronaut
Group: Users
United States
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| What New Jersey has is not capitalism, it is cronyism..corporatism, the government picking winners and losers. Or in Merika speak the good olé boys club. Added (17.03.2014, 11:59)
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That is why the government should have no influence in private commerce, and why private commerce should have no influence in government. Separation of business and state. Oh and Tesla did receive a 150 million loan from the feds.... that is what I meant by grant. Added (17.03.2014, 12:00)
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That is why the government should have no influence in private commerce, and why private commerce should have no influence in government. Separation of business and state. Oh and Tesla did receive a 150 million loan from the feds.... that is what I meant by grant.
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Monday, 17.03.2014, 09:14 | Message # 62 |
 Cosmic Curator
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United States
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| Quote desertsoldier22 (  ) That is why the government should have no influence in private commerce
In which case many industries will develop monopolies, most of which will be able to stifle any potential competition and impose whatever conditions on consumers they see fit. This is why an unregulated free market is a bad idea. Advocating for a pure capitalist system is just as naïve as advocating for a pure communist system. Neither is viable in the long run, as history as shown.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) Oh and Tesla did receive a 150 million loan from the feds.... that is what I meant by grant.
I recall them getting a loan a while ago, which they paid back in full (plus interest, if I recall correctly), and significantly ahead of time.
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| desertsoldier22 | Date: Monday, 17.03.2014, 19:31 | Message # 63 |
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Astronaut
Group: Users
United States
Messages: 51
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| Quote HarbingerDawn ( ) In which case many industries will develop monopolies, most of which will be able to stifle any potential competition and impose whatever conditions on consumers they see fit. This is why an unregulated free market is a bad idea. Advocating for a pure capitalist system is just as naïve as advocating for a pure communist system. Neither is viable in the long run, as history as shown.
They only form monopolies by using local and national government regulation to squeeze out smaller players (Cable companies)
True capitalism has never been tried because the larger companies will find a non market way to advance thier position. Eliminate all non market advancements
Quote HarbingerDawn ( ) I recall them getting a loan a while ago, which they paid back in full (plus interest, if I recall correctly), and significantly ahead of time.
I never saw that article in the constitution that outline powers allowing the government to be a bank. Again it is nearly impossible for a person to start a competitor in a major industry these days without government intervention. We used to have over 30 seperate auto companies, but intrusive regulation makes creating even a basic family sedan a multi billion dollar investment just to follow the over 100,000 pages of regulations to create one. The big three are not the best three they are simply the ones with the most connections.Added (17.03.2014, 22:31)
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I for one a rooting for Tesla not because of its advancements but to spit in the eye of the crony capitalists, I wish we had 50 Elon Musks. It is inspiring me to finish my Mechanical Engineering degree and start my own creations...
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Tuesday, 18.03.2014, 02:54 | Message # 64 |
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Cosmic Curator
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United States
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| Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) They only form monopolies by using local and national government regulation to squeeze out smaller players
That's not true, I'm pretty sure they can manage to hold their positions without turning to governments to help them.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) True capitalism has never been tried because the larger companies will find a non market way to advance thier position
Non-market I agree with. Big companies like that will find ways to keep their position, and not necessarily using government. They could use other underhanded tactics to do it.
This is WHY true capitalism can never work, it depends too much on the idea that people will be fair to each other, or that basic laws concerning human behavior will be sufficient to keep anyone from trying to do anything wrong, or that law enforcement can effectively prevent it from interfering with market principles. This is, quite obviously, not true, and is the same fundamental flawed premise of true communism. Neither takes human nature or the economy's inability to counter its worse aspects into account.
This is why we need governments, and why government regulation of the market in some manner will always be necessary.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) I never saw that article in the constitution that outline powers allowing the government to be a bank.
Do you not realize that the Constitution isn't a document stating everything that the government can or cannot do, only what it must and must not do? If you want to take the strictest possible interpretation of the constitution, then you must conclude that a woman is not eligible to be elected president, since every reference to the president's gender in the constitution is to a male president.
Sometimes direct government influence of the market is good for the economy and/or the progress of society. Giving a loan to Tesla to help them create a revolutionary product and business which will have a great positive impact on both the society and the economy is clearly a good thing, and again, if government didn't encourage people to move in a different direction then companies related energy generation and/or consumption would just keep up with the status quo forever, because it is highly profitable and does not require the massive capital investments that a fundamental change in methodology would.
In this case, we would keep using fossil fuels forever until they ran out and/or severely damaged the climate, which in either case would cause the greatest economic catastrophe in human history.
Laissez-faire.
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| desertsoldier22 | Date: Tuesday, 18.03.2014, 04:30 | Message # 65 |
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Astronaut
Group: Users
United States
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| Quote HarbingerDawn ( ) Do you not realize that the Constitution isn't a document stating everything that the government can or cannot do, only what it must and must not do? If you want to take the strictest possible interpretation of the constitution, then you must conclude that a woman is not eligible to be elected president, since every reference to the president's gender in the constitution is to a male president.
Actually the constitution is an outline of the allowed powers of the government and the first 16 amendments were a listing of what the government was not allowed to do. Any power not listed in the constitution is a negative power and is technically not legal. The problem over the last 100 years is that the document has been completely shit on by people who think the rights of the people come from government and not by the governed. Also we have a 4th branch of government now...the regulatory Branch that feels it can unanimously create rules under power of law without consent of the governed. This is what happened in New Jersey, no law was passed...it was an action of the Department Of Motor Vehicles and hopefully Tesla sues the hell out of them.
As far as a women becoming president that was addressed by the 19th amendment which not only provided for Womens sufferage but also universal citizen suffrage. As such all citizens could vote, not just the head of household that owned property. Women could vote prior to the 19th amendment if they were widows and the sole provider of an estate. Since passage of that amendment women could run for public office without being a widow.
Quote HarbingerDawn ( ) Sometimes direct government influence of the market is good for the economy and/or the progress of society. Giving a loan to Tesla to help them create a revolutionary product and business which will have a great positive impact on both the society and the economy is clearly a good thing, and again, if government didn't encourage people to move in a different direction then companies related energy generation and/or consumption would just keep up with the status quo forever, because it is highly profitable and does not require the massive capital investments that a fundamental change in methodology would.
Everytime government gets involved in anything not involving war it screws it up. Trust me I worked for 13 years under the feds and 80% of them are complete dead heads. Can you name one government social program that was even successful and not grossly mismanaged? I take it you went to college and they filled your head with Keynsian principles, which had essentially destroyed or economy time and time again. Can you give me one example of when Laissez Fare principles ever caused any damage....never.
Even this recent crisis was caused by intervention in the housing markets by the government, making banks hand out loans to low income folks who could not afford them ( Community Reinvestment act), it was a government sponsored bank that caused the whole thing to collapse. The only reason we did not totally collapse was that the economy was in such good shape before.
Tesla would have not needed a loan if the regulatory conditions had not made it such an expensive investment to get into the market with a new car. Look at what happened to Fisker, Hudson, AMC and the list goes on. the Feds passing laws to push competitors out because GM, Chrysler and Ford dealer organizations donated millions to campaigns. The Big three would love to sell directly and so would have the now dead car companies. Tesla has a huge fight on its hands, against an unholy alliance between government, big business and the labor unions (trust me they will go after Tesla next) Whoops too late https://www.google.com/url?sa=....1,d.b2I
Added (18.03.2014, 07:30)
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What we need government for is to secure our god given rights (Life, Liberty and Property), Provide for the common defense, Promote the general Welfare (This means infrastructure not food stamps) and ensure domestic tranquility (Law enforcement)
Anything else is not allowed under rule of law...anything else is dangerous and will lead to tyranny.
Edited by desertsoldier22 - Tuesday, 18.03.2014, 04:37 |
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Tuesday, 18.03.2014, 09:47 | Message # 66 |
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Cosmic Curator
Group: Administrators
United States
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| Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) Any power not listed in the constitution is a negative power and is technically not legal.
And which is the article in the constitution that says that?
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) shit
Please read the forum rules and abstain from profanity.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) Everytime government gets involved in anything not involving war it screws it up. Trust me I worked for 13 years under the feds and 80% of them are complete dead heads.
So because the United States government is generally incompetent, it therefore follows that no governments may ever do anything involving its economy? That's a tremendous leap of logic. Not to mention that just because they don't often do anything good and useful doesn't mean that they never do.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) I take it you went to college and they filled your head with Keynsian principles
No I didn't, nor do I even know what that means. You seem to think that it's utterly impossible for anyone to have come to hold the views that I hold independently of any kind of indoctrination or persuasion. That seems like a rather prejudicial attitude.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) Tesla would have not needed a loan if the regulatory conditions had not made it such an expensive investment to get into the market with a new car.
I won't claim to know everything about Tesla's financial history, but from what I understand meeting government regulations was far from the biggest drain on their wallet.
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) Can you give me one example of when Laissez Fare principles ever caused any damage....never.
Do you really want me to address the question, or was it merely rhetorical? Since you made the statement that it had never happened I'm assuming it was the latter. I'll answer anyway.
Standard Oil Company
Quote desertsoldier22 ( ) anything else is dangerous and will lead to tyranny.
The things you mentioned could do that just as easily. Anything can be corrupted.
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| midtskogen | Date: Tuesday, 01.04.2014, 19:14 | Message # 67 |
 Star Engineer
Group: Users
Norway
Messages: 1674
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| Tesla model S is still the most sold car brand in Norway:
NIL DIFFICILE VOLENTI
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Tuesday, 16.02.2016, 14:45 | Message # 68 |
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Cosmic Curator
Group: Administrators
United States
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| I wish I were still a kid just so I could have one of these:
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| Destructor1701 | Date: Tuesday, 16.02.2016, 22:23 | Message # 69 |
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Pioneer
Group: Users
Ireland
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| Hell, I want one now - screw being a kid!
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