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Conspiracy Theories
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| DoctorOfSpace | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 14:44 | Message # 271 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) Having lighter materials in their cores has nothing to do with their mass or pressure. This is due to the outer Solar system being much more deficient in heavier elements, so there are primarily only lighter elements to work with. Also, due to their mass they can hold a much higher proportion of gases (in the astronomical sense) than smaller worlds, giving them an even greater proportion of light elements to heavy ones. However the densest materials would still collect at their centers.
In some sense thats exactly what I was meaning to say. You can verify that from Antza But you are much better at wording it than I am so I'll swap in what you said and fix my post.
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Edited by DoctorOfSpace - Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 14:45 |
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| werdnaforever | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 15:07 | Message # 272 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) Diamond is composed of carbon, a relatively light element. Diamond cores/planets would form only on planets composed largely of carbon. You're right, of course. I think it was 2061: Odyssey Three, where diamond fragments of Jupiter's core were on Europa.
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| expando | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 18:44 | Message # 273 |
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| apenpaap, I am not saying that the earth expanded without increasing it's mass. Earth increased it's mass via accretion of matter inside the earth. Likely this mass is accumulated from neutrinos that pass through the earth, it has been well documented that neutrinos are absorbed by the earth such as the Homestake Gold mining neutrino experiment where they directly detected the impact of passing neutrinos.
Doctor, Quote That hypothesis is complete fantasy and based on nothing more than a fantasy. Plus if the core were lighter materials there would be no magnetic field
Yes, please ignore Jupiter who's Core is Hydrogen (the lightest element by a factor of 4) and has a magnetic field over 10 times the strength of Earth.
About the gravity in the Earth. Imagine a elevator that descends directly to the center of the earth from the surface. Would the effect of gravity keep increasing until reaching the core of the earth? Perhaps not, likely the gravity would keep increasing until halfway where the effect of gravity would tamper off until the centre of the earth is reached.
BTW, I object to the post being moved to the conspiracy thread, the original reply was made in a gaming thread where I backed up a comment where gravity would be too great for large creatures. Hardly call this conspiracy.
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Edited by expando - Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 18:55 |
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| DoctorOfSpace | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 18:52 | Message # 274 |
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| Quote (expando) Yes, please ignore Jupiter who's Core is Hydrogen (the lightest element by a factor of 4) and has a magnetic field over 10 times the strength of Earth.
I didn't ignore anything and I am far too tired to argue this moot point since I posted the information on gas Giants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen
Quote Metallic hydrogen is a state of hydrogen in which it behaves as electrical conductor. This state was predicted theoretically in 1935, but has not been reliably produced in the laboratory experiments due to the requirement of high pressures, on the order of hundreds of gigapascals. At these pressures, hydrogen might exist as a liquid rather than solid. Liquid metallic hydrogen is thought to be present in large amounts in the gravitationally compressed interiors of Jupiter, Saturn, and some of the newly discovered extrasolar planets.
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| Antza2 | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 18:56 | Message # 275 |
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| expando, please understand that the densest material always settles at the lowest level. Rocks don't float on water (or on hydrogen).
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 19:03 | Message # 276 |
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| Quote (expando) Yes, please ignore Jupiter who's Core is Hydrogen Jupiter's core is not hydrogen (it might be, but most models indicate that it is actually rocky, and if it isn't it would be due interior processes having taken place after formation, which would be specific to very high mass planets and thus not applicable to Earth). You are thinking of the interior regions surrounding the core, which are liquid metallic hydrogen. It is because the hydrogen is in this special state that the magnetic field can exist.
Quote (expando) Perhaps not, likely the gravity would keep increasing until halfway where the effect of gravity would tamper off until the centre of the earth is reached. Of course it would, no one disputes that. That does not change the fact that the force of gravity always pulls towards the center wherever you are, which is what causes differentiation in the first place.
Also, I would like to point out that the amount of mass added to the Earth by neutrino accretion is negligible, and is outclassed by many orders of magnitude by the amount of mass gained via collection of space dust and meteoroid debris (which if I remember correctly is something like 400 tons per day).
Quote (expando) BTW, I object to the post being moved to the conspiracy thread, the original reply was made in a gaming thread where I backed up a comment where gravity would be too great for large creatures. Hardly call this conspiracy. The subject of this discussion is the expanding Earth hypothesis, which has naught to do with video games. And if you read carefully, you will see that this thread is not just for conspiracy theories, but for fringe ideas in general. This definitely belongs here.
To the point: if you have actual evidence to support this "expanding Earth" hypothesis, present it. Otherwise you are just advocating that the tooth fairy's diet consists primarily of glue or that dark energy is caused by llamas.
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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 19:05 |
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| DoctorOfSpace | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 19:08 | Message # 277 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) Jupiter's core is not hydrogen (it might be, but most models indicate that it is actually rocky, and if it isn't it would be due interior processes having taken place after formation, which would be specific to very high mass planets and thus not applicable to Earth). You are thinking of the interior regions surrounding the core, which are liquid metallic hydrogen. It is because the hydrogen is in this special state that the magnetic field can exist.
Which is what I was talking about in my post. I was not talking about Jupiter or other gas giants, my context was about Earth.
I guess from now on I am going to have to go word by word and be as specific as possible and probably avoid posting when I haven't slept in over a day or more.
Quote (HarbingerDawn) Also, I would like to point out that the amount of mass added to the Earth by neutrino accretion is negligible, and is outclassed by many orders of magnitude by the amount of mass gained via collection of space dust and meteoroid debris (which if I remember correctly is something like 400 tons per day).
Quote "BBC recently asked physicist and Cambridge University professor Dave Ansell to draw up a balance sheet of the mass that's coming in to the earth, and the mass going out to find out if the earth is gaining or losing mass. By far the biggest contributor to the world's mass is the 40,000 tonnes of dust that is falling from space to Earth every year. 'The Earth is acting like a giant vacuum cleaner powered by gravity in space, pulling in particles of dust,' says Dr. Chris Smith. Another factor increasing the earth's mass is global warming which adds about 160 tonnes a year because as the temperature of the Earth goes up, energy is added to the system, so the mass must go up. On the minus side, at the very center of the Earth, within the inner core, there exists a sphere of uranium five mile in diameter which acts as a natural nuclear reactor so these nuclear reactions cause a loss of mass of about 16 tonnes per year."
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| expando | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 19:58 | Message # 278 |
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| Quote To the point: if you have actual evidence to support this "expanding Earth" hypothesis, present it.
I think the best evidence is the way the continents match together on a smaller globe.
You may visit Lawrence S. Myers site, has a lot of compelling information. http://www.expanding-earth.org/
Quote On the minus side, at the very center of the Earth, within the inner core, there exists a sphere of uranium five mile in diameter which acts as a natural nuclear reactor so these nuclear reactions cause a loss of mass of about 16 tonnes per year.
I did not know they were claiming that, I always thought the heat of the earth must come from the radioactive decay of matter but I thought the establishment claims the earth is still cooling down from the frictional heat generated at it's creation.
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 20:32 | Message # 279 |
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| Quote (expando) I thought the establishment claims the earth is still cooling down from the frictional heat generated at it's creation. No. It has been known for centuries that frictional heating alone would have rendered the Earth cooled solid many ages ago. So we have known since the 1800's that another mechanism was at work. It wasn't until the turn of the 20th century and the discovery of radioactivity that we knew what it was. However, most of the radioactive heating comes from various elements scattered about the core, not just that lump in the middle (if indeed it exists). I have no idea why you thought that the general claim was something other than radioactivity; that has been the leading explanation for generations.
Quote (expando) I think the best evidence is the way the continents match together on a smaller globe. This can also be explained by the existing theory of plate tectonics, which has other supporting evidence as well. Citing that as compelling evidence is like me citing it being 10 degrees warmer yesterday as evidence that it was 1000 degrees warmer a few months ago: one does not necessarily follow from the other, and since a better explanation exists to explain what happened and since what I would be proposing is in fact impossible, we can discount the idea altogether.
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| Watsisname | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 23:17 | Message # 280 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) Quote (expando) Perhaps not, likely the gravity would keep increasing until halfway where the effect of gravity would tamper off until the centre of the earth is reached.
Of course it would, no one disputes that. That does not change the fact that the force of gravity always pulls towards the center wherever you are, which is what causes differentiation in the first place.
Actually, (and this is a very minor nitpick but I feel it's interesting enough to go over), the effect of gravity does not increase as you go down for any point in the journey. The gravitational field inside a uniform sphere is linearly proportional to the distance from the center. So if you were to dig a hole down to the center of the earth, gravity would decrease linearly for the entire way down. Now for the real Earth, because the core is denser than the mantle, the relationship is a bit more complicated and you get a less than a linear drop-off, until you reach the core/mantle boundary where it is then linear.
Your point about differentiation is spot on though.
expando, I am sorry, but your 'expanding earth' hypothesis for the extinction of the dinosaurs has no basis in reality, as quite a few people here have demonstrated. If you are interested in understanding the Earth and the universe as it really is, then you should get your information from the people who study it for a living, ie scientists. You should not get your information from websites with multicolored all-caps text with phrases like "DON'T CONTINUE FOOLING YOURSELF".
I'd like to give you a demonstration to get you thinking about what constitutes a credible source -- this is a very important skill to have. Please do a search on Google Scholar for "Expanding Earth", and see how many relevant papers it returns. Notice how few of them there are? And they're all from the 1970s or 80s? There's a reason for that. It's because when Plate Tectonics was first getting serious scientific consideration, a few stubborn individuals held on to the idea that all of geologic history could be explained without plate movements. (They were a very small minority). This "expanding earth" theory is one of the left-over ideas they came up with. It is an old, fundamentally flawed idea and no geologist or astrophysicist active in the peer-reviewed literature today takes it seriously. We understand planetary processes and history far better than that.
Lastly, since nobody appears to have said it yet, what killed the dinosaurs (as well as about 75% of all species...) was an impact event with an asteroid. There is extremely compelling evidence supporting this, which includes the remnant of the impact crater (the Chicxulub Crater), an ejecta blanket enriched with iridium which coincides with the extinction event (it is so profound that this was known to geologists as the separation of the Cretaceous and Paleogene strata layers well before they even understood its significance as an impact event.), and many other localized geologic features such as tsunami debris. You can read up on it here on wikipedia, or if you prefer more trustworthy scholarly sources I can point you to those as well.
Please share what your thoughts are on this information and don't hesitate to continue asking questions.
Edited by Watsisname - Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 23:22 |
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| Antza2 | Date: Wednesday, 23.01.2013, 23:43 | Message # 281 |
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| Quote (Watsisname) Lastly, since nobody appears to have said it yet, what killed the dinosaurs (as well as about 75% of all species...) was an impact event with an asteroid. There is extremely compelling evidence supporting this, which includes the remnant of the impact crater (the Chicxulub Crater)
Another likely theory is a super volcano, but my guess would be that it was probably both the asteroid and the volcano at the same time. The seismic impact from the asteroid being the trigger that caused the eruption of one or several (super)volcanoes.
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Thursday, 24.01.2013, 00:01 | Message # 282 |
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| Quote (Antza2) But my guess would be that it was probably both the asteroid and the volcano at the same time. I agree. In ecology, only one event can't lead to a mass extinction. In all cases of well-known ecological crisis, there is more than one simultaned cause. For instance, 65 million years ago, the extermination of the dinosaurs was caused by both the Chicxulub impact and the eruption of the Deccan Traps, which are a chain of supervolcanos, formed by the first eruption of a hot spot.
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| Watsisname | Date: Thursday, 24.01.2013, 00:44 | Message # 283 |
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| Yes, that is fair to say and many extinction events involve multiple phenomenon which are not easily disentangled. The End-Permian extinction is one of the best examples of this.
The Deccan Traps appear to have begun erupting before the impact occurred, and if that is correct than the impact cannot be the cause of the eruptions. It is possible it made the eruptions more severe however, and there is some scientific debate on the possibility of a link between impacts and eruptions.
The Chicxulub impact is generally thought to have played the greater role for the extinction because the effects of a ~10km impact are so extreme -- it simply pales in comparison to a supervolcano. Additionally, the strata demonstrate the extinction was extremely rapid and is very well-timed to the age of the impact. In itself I would argue that the impact is sufficient to explain the extinction, though the volcanic eruptions certainly made things even worse. Possibly the ecosystem was already stressed by the climate changes from the eruptions, and then the impact dealt the final blow.
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| DoctorOfSpace | Date: Thursday, 07.02.2013, 00:02 | Message # 284 |
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Thursday, 07.02.2013, 00:19 | Message # 285 |
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| Assuming that title is correct he should be talking about "They Live" at some point, but since I couldn't make it more than a couple of minutes without giving up, could you direct me to the timestamp of when he gets onto that subject?
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