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Education and the Future of Nations
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 03:42 | Message # 316
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The current system is already developing methods of basically downloading information into the brain. We are a few years off from consumer grade models being developed. Such devices won't replace all forms of education at first, but it will replace things like prerequisite courses. What you call near religious faith, I call optimism about the direction of technology based on historical adoptions of technology. The very fact that I am posting this from a phone, which was impossible less than 10 years ago, supports the idea that technology will inevitably change the system.

The system is already changing to adapt to new technologies, like the internet and advances in portable computing. If the cheaper and better alternative is to simply download information then you can expect people to move towards that system.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 04:24 | Message # 317
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Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
The current system is already developing methods of basically downloading information into the brain. We are a few years off from consumer grade models being developed. Such devices won't replace all forms of education at first, but it will replace things like prerequisite courses.

This is not what education should be about; it is this very philosophy that is at the root of many of the problems the education system today faces. They focus on facts and information, and skip over the important things, such as fostering wonder, fascination, and interest about the world in students, and teaching people how to reason, investigate, and think critically. Those are abilities that must be taught and developed, and they cannot be downloaded into your brain from a machine.

Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
We are a few years off from consumer grade models being developed. Such devices won't replace all forms of education at first, but it will replace things like prerequisite courses.

I bet you every bit of money that you have that that won't happen within a decade.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 04:25
 
DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 04:42 | Message # 318
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http://m.popsci.com/technol....eaching

That's from 2011. The technology only faces a few engineering issues which are already being worked on.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
This is not what education should be about; it is this very philosophy that is at the root of many of the problems the education system today faces. They focus on facts and information, and skip over the important things, such as fostering wonder, fascination, and interest about the world in students, and teaching people how to reason, investigate, and think critically. Those are abilities that must be taught and developed, and they cannot be downloaded into your brain from a machine.


Actually critical thinking skills are nothing mystical and like any information they can be copied and downloaded. We are moving into a future where our minds will be our own to shape as we like.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 04:46 | Message # 319
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Quote (DoctorOfSpace)
Actually critical thinking skills are nothing mystical and like any information they can be copied and downloaded.

I'm not sure it would be as easy to do that as it would be to install information such as a list of names, but I know it's possible. But if we do things the way you're suggesting then all we're doing is programming people, and I'm not sure that's the right way to go. I agree it can be potentially very beneficial, but only if used up to a certain point.





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DoctorOfSpaceDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 05:07 | Message # 320
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Things that are programed tend to do the function they are programed for better than something that is not programed to do that function. And for right now, unlike a computer, humans have a mind of their own to choose what to do with the information they are given. One could expect to see those who would simply live by what they download and those who would use what they have downloaded to build upon it. Then as more knowledge is gained that could be shared fairly quickly through such a system.

In some ways it is similar to what we have now in terms of gaining knowledge and using it. This would simply remove the middle man and speed up the process.

This won't happen over night but it is happening. The modern education system is already showing signs that it ccannot keep up with the rate of change.





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DisasterpieceDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 07:17 | Message # 321
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I just got an idea that I will post here so you guys can shoot it full of holes. biggrin

We make starships that are just huge hard drives and storage containers and send them into an orbit that is in the Oort cloud. It will keep records of history, science, and other things that can be stored as data and it will keep samples of DNA, technology and other tangible items. So when we destroy ourselves, we have access to our technology, so we can skip clubs and rocks and go straight machine guns, bombs and chainsaws. biggrin biggrin YAY!





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 07:34 | Message # 322
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Quote (Inarius)
If you are in the 10% of the upper class (or, of the "2%" gifted students) you will probably have some difficulties...

Yes and no. If you're in the upper 2%, you are also smart enough to know it and to make use of it by yourself. It's not really the duty of society to make sure that everybody will make full use of their capabilities and to realise everybody's potential. But it is a good investment for society to aim in that general direction.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 08:01 | Message # 323
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Quote (midtskogen)
If you're in the upper 2%, you are also smart enough to know it and to make use of it by yourself.

I am in the upper 2%, and I did very poorly in school, partly for the reasons Inarius was alluding to, and partly due to other factors beyond my control. Contrary to what most people think, intelligence by itself is useless.





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midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 09:29 | Message # 324
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Contrary to what most people think, intelligence by itself is useless.

Intelligence, at least the way people like Mensa measure it, seems to me mainly to be how quickly the mind can understand and solve problems or abstract ideas. Which is extremely useful in almost anything you do. It's not determination or the ability to get things done, but if you have the determination, intelligence will make everything much easier. So, useless as it is useless for bicycling to have strong legs if you don't even get on the bike or people keep telling you that you shouldn't ride, but if get a small push and you do ride, you'll easily outrun others.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 10:05 | Message # 325
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Quote (midtskogen)
So, useless as it is useless for bicycling to have strong legs if you don't even get on the bike

More like useless as it is useless for bicycling to have strong legs if you have a chronic balancing problem. Multiple traits are required to use the bicycle. Having one very strong trait means nothing if any of the other necessary traits are absent. This is true for anything in life, and there are some traits which are required to accomplish virtually anything. If you lack these, then you will accomplish nothing in life, regardless of how strong some of your other traits might be.





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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 10:07
 
midtskogenDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 12:26 | Message # 326
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Having one very strong trait means nothing if any of the other necessary traits are absent.

I don't deny that, but intelligence is an exceptionally versatile trait, since it can be used to find new solutions and in some cases circumvent the lack of other traits. Of course, if one factor is unescapably 0, the product is always 0.





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HarbingerDawnDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 19:10 | Message # 327
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Quote (midtskogen)
I don't deny that, but intelligence is an exceptionally versatile trait, since it can be used to find new solutions and in some cases circumvent the lack of other traits.

True. But in very rare cases it can still be rendered useless, because...

Quote (midtskogen)
Of course, if one factor is unescapably 0, the product is always 0.





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werdnaforeverDate: Tuesday, 27.08.2013, 19:48 | Message # 328
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I was the same way. Any kind of math I took before calculus I got easily. But calculus I couldn't get intuitively, at least beyond the easiest parts of it. What I don't understand is why it's a required course at universities. When are you ever going to need to know calculus? It's only applicable to a narrow range of job specializations. If you're planning on becoming a history or language major then it's a waste of time, and it could serve to keep an otherwise very qualified person out of their career if completing calculus courses is a graduation requirement. This is one problem I have with the system of education we have.

It's not easy- I'm preparing for a final right now. But it's an absolute must for things like physics and engineering. IMHO, once you get past the basics it's not that much different from learning memorizing different kinds of problems and how to solve them- just like any other kind of mathematics.

It's important to be well rounded. There were things during high and middle school I was taught that I hated, and saw no purpose for, but I'm often surprised at how useful they've become. Life is full of surprises.

Quote (midtskogen)
Intelligence, at least the way people like Mensa measure it, seems to me mainly to be how quickly the mind can understand and solve problems or abstract ideas. Which is extremely useful in almost anything you do. It's not determination or the ability to get things done, but if you have the determination, intelligence will make everything much easier. So, useless as it is useless for bicycling to have strong legs if you don't even get on the bike or people keep telling you that you shouldn't ride, but if get a small push and you do ride, you'll easily outrun others.


Cognitive ability comes in various forms... how fast you solve problems, how well you remember things, how well you process visual or auditory information, your short term memory. There's also how well you solve problems- how creative you can be.

Also, my IQ is around 121 (I had a recent neurological battery) (I'm 20. There, I said it.) It used to be around the 140s when I was little but they have been moving results closer to the mean over the years- so it's not like I've gotten dumber, I suppose. I hope. wacko If I have, maybe I can blame some of it on stupid consumerism, TV, and American society as a whole- there's so much mind pollution out there.
 
HarbingerDawnDate: Saturday, 07.09.2013, 20:35 | Message # 329
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[Continued from here]

Quote (Enki)
Also, the American scientists who use metric are government scientists and apparently they've crashed a few spacecraft because of confusion of measurements between systems.

If by "a few" one mean "one", then yes, and it was not the fault of the "government scientists", it was the fault of one of the subcontractors, Lockheed Martin, which failed to adhere to the specified system of units in the thruster performance data they submitted. This error went unnoticed, and that caused the crash. It has not happened since then because must stricter oversight and enforcement has been implemented.

Quote (Enki)
What will future civilizations think when they look at us and cannot tell who did what? They will have to assume we were all the same culture if a scientific report in Germany and one from this American Federation are in a WorldWideBasic language and in SI Units so that nothing can distinguish whose achievements are whose.

The idea that future historians will judge our current civilization and cultures solely by the language and units used in scientific publications is beyond absurd. And anyway, the whole nationalistic concept of "Germans did this!" and "Americans did this!" has caused many wars in the past while contributing nearly nothing to the good of the world. I would much rather we lose some of our national identities if it means forging a new and stronger identity as one people: humans. When historians look back, I hope they don't wonder what group of people did what (beyond the recognition of individuals and so forth), and can acknowledge that it was accomplished by humanity.

And contrary to what you and some others may think, that would not mean the end of cultural heterogeneity.

Quote (Enki)
The Confederate States of America). But try saying this United States is. That is Ebonics, not proper English. Now think of the sentence, "The United States is the wealthiest country in the world," and see how unnoticed this has gone.

In this case, the United States is a short form of the United States of America, which is a single collective entity, and is therefore properly referred to using singular language.

Quote (Enki)
You're right. There is no such country. A federation is not a country, it is a collection of states

I was using the word "country" in its general use, synonymous with the general use of "nation", which is to refer to a sovereign state or in some cases non-sovereign but extremely autonomous entities.

The United States of America is indeed a federation, as are numerous other countries. That does not grant you the power to refer to it by a totally different name and not be incorrect.

Concerning my initial statement, let me put it another way: there is no legally recognized governing entity or collection thereof of any kind called the American Federation.

Quote (Enki)
I've logged weeks of research into the history of these United States. I am forced to conclude that we are federated states with a federal government touted as supreme.

The authority of the federal government is the defining characteristic of a federation... if it lacks that then it's a confederation. Anyway, that's not a great insight and does not require study. The USA is a collection of states united in a federal system, and aside from that just being plainly obvious, it's something that everyone is taught in school! Everyone in this country should know that information!

Quote (Enki)
its our mathematical language, and it defines us, makes us unique

That is not the sole thing which makes us unique, nor is it a good thing. What if there were one disease in the world for which we had no cure, and was unique in that it was the only disease that was still harmful. Should we abstain from trying to develop a cure just so we could maintain that uniqueness?

Anyway, our mathematical language is base 10 mathematics, not US Customary units, and so if you really want to aid in bolstering that you'd argue for using a system of units which is also based on powers of 10, to better conform with our overall mathematical "language".

Quote (Enki)
I do not believe a nation should so easy throw its culture away, and America should not throw away is system of measurement to meet the standard of any state or federation on the planet.

It's not about meeting other people's standards. It's about making sense. The current system is in every way stupid and senseless. The metric system is none of those things. We should adopt it on account of the fact that it MAKES SENSE. The fact that every major world power EXCEPT the USA has adopted it should speak very loudly to the effect that there's something going for it, otherwise it wouldn't have been adopted so ubiquitously.

And if you think that our system of units is the backbone of or a large part of our culture, then I would say that we then have no culture to speak of and would be losing nothing by getting rid of it. (Of course, I disagree with that entirely).

Aside from that, you seem to forget that culture is a constantly evolving thing. It never stays the same. You can't stop elements of a culture from disappearing any more than you can stop new elements of a culture from appearing. And why would you want to? In my opinion it is far better to try to cause positive change than it is to try to prevent change altogether, because in the latter endeavor you will always fail, and even if you did not you would gain nothing with your success.

Quote (Enki)
If we make our units uniform worldwide, then we must make our language uniform and so on.

That is a non sequitur. I think we SHOULD do that, but if we have a uniform system of units it does not necessarily follow that we would also need a uniform language. Look at the portion of the world using SI units (i.e. pretty much all of it). They have been using said units for years and still have an astounding diversity in language and culture, and what changes there have been to those things can be traced to causes unrelated to metrication.

Quote (Enki)
This demonstrates the validity of my earlier point that we are not a country, because people were willing to go to war over whether or not we are.

Country is not synonymous with nation in the way you were using the terms there, so this whole quote is nonsensical. Putting that aside however, it still makes no sense because you seem to be saying that if someone disagrees with whether something is true then it becomes not true. This is patently false.





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EnkiDate: Saturday, 07.09.2013, 23:39 | Message # 330
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Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Lockheed Martin, which failed to adhere to the specified system of units in the thruster performance data they submitted. This error went unnoticed, and that caused the crash.

That's the one I was thinking of.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
And anyway, the whole nationalistic concept of "Germans did this!" and "Americans did this!"

Nationalism is not the true cause of war. Nationalism as it is used by the Nazis is not what it actually means. Nationalism is pride in one's culture and is actually a good thing. World War II was a result of a tyrannical regime that was not nationalist, but invented a new Aryan culture, forcibly removing the old one and installing a belief in the dominance of their state. This is also known as fascism.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
beyond the recognition of individuals

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
And if you think that our system of units is the backbone of or a large part of our culture, then I would say that we then have no culture to speak of and would be losing nothing by getting rid of it. (Of course, I disagree with that entirely).

I do believe in recognition of individuals, but my point was the the preservation of our nation's identity and the example I provided was merely a concrete.

No I don't think the customary is the only thing that defines America. I could say other things like, "Let's get rid of football and rename soccer because other nations are like that. It makes sense doesn't it? I mean in soccer your foot touches the ball a lot, but in football you usually throw the ball and run around carrying it."

Really, there's not much time for television in other parts of the world either. That is part of our electronic culture.

Freedom in general can be considered a cultural thing, other countries like to call themselves democracies but some of us know better (We are a federal republic, not a democracy, which is what killed Rome. And China is a "people's republic", how's that for a legally defined name?).

Here's another one; imagine the Egyptians building the pyramids, but they wrote all over them in a language that wasn't their own. Not only would it be really stupid, it would be confusing and we may end up crediting another civilization with their creation. Or perhaps someone built the pyramids and the Egyptians carved into them and wrote all over them. Then we show up, start studying them, and believe the pyramids are Egypt's despite evidence of their age being older than Egypt itself.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
I was using the word "country" in its general use, synonymous with the general use of "nation", which is to refer to a sovereign state or in some cases non-sovereign but extremely autonomous entities.
The United States of America is indeed a federation, as are numerous other countries. That does not grant you the power to refer to it by a totally different name and not be incorrect.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
The USA is a collection of states united in a federal system, and aside from that just being plainly obvious, it's something that everyone is taught in school! Everyone in this country should know that information!

Again, though, you call these United States a country. Country and nation in their general use are not correct. People have forgotten that each state in the Union is an independent country. Think of the State of Israel. People call it a state, but it is also a country. An actual federation, being a collection of states, is therefore a union of countries, not a country in itself. Find that in a school textbook!

Also, if we are a federation and we are American, then we are the American Federation. American being an adjective and federation being a specific noun, and therefore capitalized, which makes it okay to call us the American Federation.

What we are dealing with is a government run curriculum that doesn't want us to think this way.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
our mathematical language is base 10 mathematics

Units of measurement are part of a mathematical language, and all of our mathematics are not base 10. Time and degrees, measurements handed down from Shumerians, are base 10 * 6. Therefore a full turn is 360 and an hour is 60 min and 3600 sec, and a minute is 60 sec.

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
That is a non sequitur. I think we SHOULD do that, but if we have a uniform system of units it does not necessarily follow that we would also need a uniform language. Look at the portion of the world using SI units (i.e. pretty much all of it). They have been using said units for years and still have an astounding diversity in language and culture, and what changes there have been to those things can be traced to causes unrelated to metrication.

The argument for uniform units is the same as the argument for a uniform language; everyone understands one another. I am calling it a slippery slope. Most of these governments forced the metric system on their people and many of them are beginning to advocate multiculturalism in their schools. Schools should not teach kids how to be Africans (unless they are in Africa of course, and I understand that there are many cultures in Africa). They should teach kids about their own nationality and, at the most, cover the rest of the world generally in a geography (Unless they're teaching them about a super-wealthy nation such as America, which would actually be useful when they get jobs requiring them to deal with American companies).

Quote (HarbingerDawn)
Country is not synonymous with nation in the way you were using the terms there, so this whole quote is nonsensical. Putting that aside however, it still makes no sense because you seem to be saying that if someone disagrees with whether something is true then it becomes not true. This is patently false.

I was merely pointing out that in each of the three Antebellum nations, there were general differences regarding the definition of a country. The North considered these United States a whole, indivisible. The South considered them countries, voluntarily joined by a pact creating a uniform monetary system, organizing military protection, and reconciling borders. To them this pact, if broken by the other participants, could be left. The West (my nation, which is no longer "west")could've gone either way, and were farther removed from things and therefore less educated (which is what I blame for the "King Andrew" fiasco).
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Now our forefathers seemed to think that state's were above the federation, and therefore countries. Look at the tenth amendment. Thomas Jefferson was an advocate of state sovereignty as were the Democrats that followed him to undo the damage the Federalists were doing by abolishing the Articles of Confederation, which when you look at our government today and the mess they can justify by a couple of stray sentences in the Constitution, the articles in their simplicity start to look pretty good.
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Back to the issue of the government not wanting us to think in this way; we are run by the government that won the Civil War, which gets to run the school curriculum and therefore write history. School textbooks have told us it was all about slavery, a condition which southerners felt guilty of (they could not get rid of it right away because their economy was so dependent on it that the economy would crash and leave everyone, including the slaves, poor and living in the woods), but Lincoln himself admitted that he couldn't care less about slavery, that the war was about "preserving the Union," about making these United States into a country, one of uniform laws, where an imperial city miles away could rule on things they were entirely disconnected from, destroying entire lives. The evils people complain of about our government, both by Republicans and Democrats, were sanctioned upon the Northern Nation's victory in the Civil War, and many of them started with the Civil War.

People complain of having no choices when they vote, just idiot vs. idiot. That started with the Civil War. Prior to that, Democrats (although somewhat damaged by King Andrew)were Libertarians, and Republicans were everything people don't like either party for today.

The regulation of trade via tariffs, especially to the expense of some states over others, was sanctioned after the Civil War.

The idea that the Federal Government was supreme was not legally dominant until after the Civil War. Were the government before the Civil War to propose the FBI, there would be an outcry. For the Federal Government to be able to make any dumb law that, as per the constitution, they're not allowed to make and suddenly be able to enforce it, would've been considered an invasion. Imagine the UN banning firearms worldwide and creating an International Bureau of Investigation so their laws could trump American laws, and then attempting to march from one end of America to the other to weed out violations. As futile as such an endeavor would be, it would nonetheless be unacceptable. (The thing the UN and the American Federation have in common is that they can both be defunded by their members, one way or another.)

People complain of powerful corporations taking advantage of the so-called common man, if one could be said to exist. The Civil War sanctioned government practices that allowed for this behavior, special privileges for campaign funds. The big one was that the tariff money that the government was bringing in from goods the southerners bought overseas was going to pay industries in America, which made overpriced, flimsy imitations of British goods then, for the quality products that they did not create. Of course the government then gets to play the blame game and make barely intelligible laws in such a quantity that they only have to enforce them on corporations that don't play their game, making the only way to succeed, being bad.

The racism and bigotry (I like to separate these two because the former means seeing a difference between two races, and the latter which means hatred because of the former) that plagued our federation for so many years was sanctioned, indirectly, after the Civil War. I point to the "carpetbaggers," northerners who came to the south, carrying suitcases that looked like carpets. These were Republicans and their aim was to push northern style politics on the south. The Freedman's Bureaus then "taught the blacks about law," meaning they showed them how to vote, in multiple counties per person, for candidates whose names they could not read. They were herded like cattle that way, which is plenty more racist and even bigoted than bringing them to a civil nation (which they might've never seen at all) and giving them a house and food in exchange for labor. I understand that a few masters were abusive, but there's a thing called "Yellow Journalism," which means only the sensational sells, therefore you'd never hear about the non-abusive masters, and I don't believe an entire section of America, a people conceived in liberty and equity could possibly be rotten to the core, even if slavery is a contradiction to freedom and is rightfully abolished. The problem is that because so many slaves were dumped at once from their homes, more than half of the southern population was unable to take care of itself, and consequently (the ones that did not go home to receive a pay that went entirely to rent their old shack back) had to live off the government. Considering that, before the war ended, their were free, slave-owning blacks in the South along with the rest of this paragraph (which is regrettably long and therefore you may need to reread parts) the government caused subsequent racial tensions that entailed a hundred year long struggle for equality only to have many northern blacks stay in their own communities living off the government and telling their kids that some white man is putting him down.

Although this may all seem a little off-track, when you put it all together, you see the underlying issue. We fought an entire war, killing nearly and possibly more than 700,000 Americans over whether or not this American Federation was a country or not. In other words, someone wanted power and destroying the meaning of the word state (being a synonym of country) was a good way of doing it. (Note: 700,000 is the number of troops who died plus the civilians, mostly women and children, in the South who starved to death or were hit with stray bullets.)

Now imagine Nazi Germany won. We'd have a lot of things screwed up there too. What we are experiencing here is a collective subconscious denial that we are the bad guys, making it unacceptable to advocate anything our victims stood for: free enterprise, state sovereignty (being the issue of whether or not America is a country), and small government. But the contradiction is that in fiction we are subconsciously geared to find sympathy toward rebels. Think of Serenity, which nobody even realizes is pro-Confederate but has all the necessary undertones, and Star Wars, in which a Republican Government is turned into a tyrannical regime and we root on the Rebellion throughout Episodes IV-VI or even in the first three when Padme expresses sympathy toward the Confederacy of Independent Systems, which were baited by the tyrant himself. Why then can we find no sympathy toward the Confederacy? Because we killed them and have a hard time dealing with it.

You may say this is quite a trip for a simple disagreement over whether or not America is a country (but hopefully now you see what a mess this misconception has created, or is a product of, or a mix of the two), but I had to draw my conclusions from somewhere and hopefully, if we can straighten out the damage done to our language, we can move on to healing a wounds in our nations that still feed the federation to this day.





"If you arrive at a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." - Ayn Rand
"It may be that our purpose on Earth is not to find God, but to create him." - Arthur C. Clarke
 
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