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Spiritual future
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 14:46 | Message # 16 |
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| Quote (Aerospacefag) No, you absolutely don't understand. Science is not magic. Magic is basically doing things that seems completely unrelated to the result.
I wasn't talking about this kind of witchcraft. I was talking about the facts that people couldn't understand yestreday are explainable today. For instance, the vikings believed that the thunder was the action of the god Thor, but now, we know that it is an electricity discharge between ground and clouds. The strange results of alchemy are just chemistry (mostly, there are a lot of foolishness too). And I think certain things that we call "unexplainable" or "supernatural" today could find an explaination in the future, through quantum mechanics, for example.
Quote (HarbingerDawn) If you merged them together, each one loses an important aspect of itself, and both would suffer.
I don't think so. I think each one of them could be helpful for each other. Look at the greatest scientists : a great part of them are doing an artistic activity.
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| anonymousgamer | Date: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 16:22 | Message # 17 |
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| Quote (Voekoevaka) For instance, the vikings believed that the thunder was the action of the god Thor, but now, we know that it is an electricity discharge between ground and clouds.
Imagine a toy remote controlled car back in the middle ages.
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| DevonX | Date: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 18:16 | Message # 18 |
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| The Spirit science series http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSpiritScience
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 21:15 | Message # 19 |
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| Quote (Voekoevaka) I don't think so. I think each one of them could be helpful for each other. Look at the greatest scientists : a great part of them are doing an artistic activity.
I agree that they can influence each other in a positive way, but almost every way that they could become "merged" would be negative. Merging implies that they become the same thing, that there is no longer science and no longer art, but one thing that combines aspects of both. This would be disastrous since there are aspects of science and art that are in opposition to each other, and you would need to sacrifice fundamental elements of each in order to achieve this "merger". The only way to have each be what it should be is to have them maintain their separate identities.
Quote (Voekoevaka) And I think certain things that we call "unexplainable" or "supernatural" today could find an explaination in the future, through quantum mechanics, for example.
Yes, possibly. But can you point to any confirmed phenomenon that is unexplained that resembles something "spiritual"? All unexplained verified phenomena I know of seem to have a physical cause, like the accelerating expansion of the universe and the anomalous mass distribution in the cosmos, the latter of which is now known to be due to a physical cause that we call dark matter.
I saw no science there, just subjectivity, assumption, and superstition. The currently featured video is about the "four elements", a hypothesis that was disproven centuries ago. I found him really annoying and so I stopped watching, so I could have missed some actual science, but I suspect that there wasn't any...
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| DoctorOfSpace | Date: Saturday, 18.08.2012, 21:31 | Message # 20 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) I saw no science there, just subjectivity, assumption, and superstition. The currently featured video is about the "four elements", a hypothesis that was disproven centuries ago. I found him really annoying and so I stopped watching, so I could have missed some actual science, but I suspect that there wasn't any...
I sat through all of their videos. Their use of the word "theory" and "science" is such a gross misuse its almost painful.
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Sunday, 19.08.2012, 16:00 | Message # 21 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) But can you point to any confirmed phenomenon that is unexplained that resembles something "spiritual"?
Due to a general skepticism, most of the results obtained on "spiritual" fields are not published. But it is a kind changing now.
Some facts, noticed in a scientific context, especially in hospitals, can't be just coincidences. For example, by placing images hidden at the ceiling of the room, people who claimed they have experienced an NDE can describe these.
But I agree that there is a lot of biased results in this field of study. In my opinion, results obtained about telepathy with Zener cards were just a manipulation of the statistics.
It is hard to differenciate the fake from the potentially true results, and I hope we will understand these, determine the true and the false, and it could be a key for a better future...
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| werdnaforever | Date: Sunday, 19.08.2012, 17:38 | Message # 22 |
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| With regards to the aforementioned Kardashev scale... I think the geographical meaning is more important. After all, in order to use the energy of planets or stars, you must be able to travel to them. That alone makes it more about expansion and less about energy usage. A type II colonizes it's solar system. A type III expands throughout a galaxy, and a type IV masters nearby galaxies and beyond. You could even say a type V travels between universes, but I won't go there.
As for art and science, they should be separate but they can complement each other. Science can be heavily inspired by art and vice versa. Science itself is an art (art is no exact science!  ).
Never underestimate the importance of art and culture. A civilization with a surplus needs art to keep it from withering away out of boredom. I think that if we can accomplish the hurdles ahead of us, art's importance will grow by leaps and bounds (as we have more and more time to engage ourselves with it).
Consider, our culture is the only thing that truly separates us from animals. We aren't the only ones capable of manipulating our environment (for example, have you ever seen an anthill?), but we are the only beings who create pictures, music, literature- things with no practical purpose when it comes to survival.
Spirituality is really just part of our culture. It will remain with us as long as we are human. Even in some kind of technological-wonderland-post-singularity-future, as long as we are human we will retain it.
That's just my two (ambiguous currency units).
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| Voekoevaka | Date: Sunday, 19.08.2012, 18:11 | Message # 23 |
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| Quote (werdnaforever) Science itself is an art.
I totally agree with this.
Quote (werdnaforever) Spirituality is really just part of our culture.
In nowadays's society, that's right. But what I called a "spiritual" civilisation is a civilisation where spirituality comes out of their culture to become a great part of their living. For instance : the middle-age indian society.
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Sunday, 19.08.2012, 20:49 | Message # 24 |
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| Quote (werdnaforever) Spirituality is really just part of our culture. It will remain with us as long as we are human. Even in some kind of technological-wonderland-post-singularity-future, as long as we are human we will retain it.
No offense intended to anyone, but I hope you're wrong, at least if there turns out to be no basis in reality for belief in the "spiritual". We will always look for deeper emotional enrichment in life and seek a way of being that is more fulfilling, but that is not necessarily linked to spirituality in the way that it has been defined in this discussion.
Quote (werdnaforever) As for art and science, they should be separate but they can complement each other. Science can be heavily inspired by art and vice versa.
Yes. This is what I have tried to say before, though I guess I didn't do a very good job
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| werdnaforever | Date: Sunday, 19.08.2012, 21:17 | Message # 25 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) We will always look for deeper emotional enrichment in life and seek a way of being that is more fulfilling, but that is not necessarily linked to spirituality in the way that it has been defined in this discussion.
That's kind of what I meant. I suppose I could have said it better in my post. My point is more about culture itself, and the ability for people to be inspired. I don't endorse any actual belief in the spiritual or supernatural.
When I think about mankind's future, there's one adjective I hope to be able to use. The word is "sublime". It's such a powerful word, its meaning still as strong as ever. (On a side note; thank goodness it hasn't been degraded into pure immaturity and nothingness like the word "awesome". I try to use "awesome" as little as possible since it's been turned into exactly the opposite of what it means.)
Sublime is where I want humanity to go. I want to see a future that's calm, quiet, and vast. I want to see profound knowledge, wisdom, and art. A future where I can stand, look, and be filled with awe. I'd want humanity to achieve remarkable feats in engineering, science, and art, with humility equal to the scope of these achievements. Considering human nature this isn't easy, and that is exactly why I hope for it.
P.S. Nothing says sublime like megascale engineering.
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Sunday, 19.08.2012, 21:50 | Message # 26 |
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| Quote (werdnaforever) Considering human nature this isn't easy, and that is exactly why I hope for it.
I honestly think that if humanity cannot accomplish this, then it will inevitably be destroyed. The survival of our species depends on us overcoming the worse parts of our nature.
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| DeathFromBelow | Date: Tuesday, 21.08.2012, 12:30 | Message # 27 |
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| Quote (Voekoevaka) Due to a general skepticism, most of the results obtained on "spiritual" fields are not published. But it is a kind changing now.
Some facts, noticed in a scientific context, especially in hospitals, can't be just coincidences. For example, by placing images hidden at the ceiling of the room, people who claimed they have experienced an NDE can describe these.
This has never been shown in a controlled experiment, all we have are anecdotes.
Rational thinking requires a BS filter. We can't scientifically disprove the existence of, say, Santa Claus, and yet you don't see a lot of adults trying to argue that there's a possibility Santa really exists. You can imagine an infinite number of things that might be real or true, but if there's no evidence for something it's reasonable to conclude that it doesn't exist until evidence is found. That doesn't mean we aren't open to new ideas, just that we need to be careful about letting our emotions get in the way of figuring out what's actually true.
I've never been a remotely 'spiritual' person. I think it's mostly due to my love of science as a kid (Carl Sagan was my hero), but I wonder if there's some natural variation our brains that predisposes a significant portion of the population to spiritual/religious beliefs regardless of upbringing. I know it's been suggested that religiosity is tied to OCD and the schizophrenia range of mental disorders.
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| werdnaforever | Date: Tuesday, 21.08.2012, 13:29 | Message # 28 |
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| Quote (DeathFromBelow) but I wonder if there's some natural variation our brains that predisposes a significant portion of the population to spiritual/religious beliefs regardless of upbringing. I know it's been suggested that religiosity is tied to OCD and the schizophrenia range of mental disorders.
I think the reason for religion's popularity is simple: it serves as a comfort.
In our modern world, we can see that we live in a purposeless universe with no logical meaning or importance, and the average person cannot handle a life without a goal or framework. Religion offers meaning to lives without it, and makes people comfortable in an unforgiving, cold universe.
Now, some might disagree with my assessment of the universe, but I guarantee there will never be any kind of logical importance to it-the only chance for that is if we completely understand the context of our universe; why it exists, etc.
All our lives we accomplish goals which are temporary- either to sustain ourselves, entertain ourselves, or help our society sustain itself. Our lives and our society are temporary, and will all eventually cease to exist, leaving behind the same universe that was here when we were born. All our philosophies, goals, and ambitions are constrained to our society or some extension of it, but these are artificial, and will not last beyond us.
Our civilization has no end goal, and may never have one. In the end it's about people trying to live in their own world- about survival. Since our survival is limited, all we are doing is prolonging a delay to the inevitable. No matter what we accomplish, we won't last forever (the laws of our universe forbid it- remember entropy.
All this makes religion quite comfortable. Now, I know the average joe doesn't come to these conclusions very easily if at all. But we must understand that our world is unforgiving. It may not contain all the dangers of outer space, but it's full of it's own hazards. Ancient men saw this, and religion gave them mental safety from a harsh world they could not fully comprehend. Throughout civilization, it has offered an explanation for the unexplained. It can give us a purpose, moral guidelines, and most importantly, it often promises something good will come of death. Religion can be used for negative purposes; as a motivator for crusades or war a way to comfort soldiers so they are more likely to fight to their deaths. Thus, religion endures in our society. It probably will stay in some form until we can learn not to fear the universe, or not to fear death.
Edited by werdnaforever - Tuesday, 21.08.2012, 13:30 |
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Tuesday, 21.08.2012, 13:57 | Message # 29 |
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| Warning, slightly off-topic rant below.
<rant>
Quote (werdnaforever) In our modern world, we can see that we live in a purposeless universe with no logical meaning or importance, and the average person cannot handle a life without a goal or framework. Religion offers meaning to lives without it, and makes people comfortable in an unforgiving, cold universe.
I think it is unrelated to the modern world and our current understanding of the universe. Religiosity has actually gone down since the age of science began. People are now able to make sense of the world without invoking the supernatural or the divine.
And the universe is not cold and unforgiving, it merely is. It is apathetic, indifferent, unbiased, and absolutely consistent. To imbue it with other attributes is to falsely personify it.
Quote (werdnaforever) It can give us a purpose, moral guidelines, and most importantly, it often promises something good will come of death.
Religion's purposes are often arbitrary and divisive, its moral guidelines are just what its culture of origin decided was moral (some religions' core texts have self-contradictory and occasionally repugnant moral frameworks, like Judaism and Christianity), and the promise of life after death means that people are less likely to devote themselves to their present existence as much as they otherwise would.
The existence of religion may be quite understandable, but it is nonetheless a blight upon humanity.
</rant>
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Edited by HarbingerDawn - Tuesday, 21.08.2012, 13:57 |
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| Antza2 | Date: Tuesday, 21.08.2012, 16:13 | Message # 30 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) The existence of religion may be quite understandable, but it is nonetheless a blight upon humanity.
I agree with this 
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