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SpaceEngine Planet Classifications
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| Teto | Date: Wednesday, 15.02.2012, 17:28 | Message # 61 |
 Space Tourist
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| Forget it. 
I think I've read that, not watching. I've found Juno, but it's an asteroid. Never mind. But changing the shape of a planet, according its speed would be great.
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| apenpaap | Date: Wednesday, 18.04.2012, 21:51 | Message # 62 |
 World Builder
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| I personally like the current classification system for the most part. The one thing I would change are the names of temperatures above Temperate: the problem is that 'Warm' seems to me to be associated with the temperature of a summer's day or a warm bath or something, not temperatures like Mercury and Venus have; I would associate that with 'hot'. So I think the calid class should be renamed to warm, warm to hot, and hot to infernal or a similar word. Warm just doesn't bring associations with a place where it is far too warm for life to exist and where organic materials spontaneously combust.
Aside from that, I love the idea of adding Titan-type worlds. As for magma worlds, wouldn't terrestrial planets in extremely close orbits (like a hot Jupiter type of orbit) get molten and become magma worlds even if the system was quite old?
I occasionally stream at http://www.twitch.tv/magistermystax. Sometimes SE, sometimes other games.
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Thursday, 19.04.2012, 10:03 | Message # 63 |
 Author of Space Engine
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| Quote (apenpaap) So I think the calid class should be renamed to warm, warm to hot, and hot to infernal or a similar word.
No, becuase "hot" is already used in planetary science for very close to sun and very hot planets (remember term "hot jupiter"). So we need two other words for Mercury like planets (not such hot, 300-800°) and more temperate planets (30-300°). Any other suggestions?
Quote (apenpaap) As for magma worlds, wouldn't terrestrial planets in extremely close orbits (like a hot Jupiter type of orbit) get molten and become magma worlds even if the system was quite old?
Yes, this is possible. But I should implement magma rendering and generation first.
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| apenpaap | Date: Thursday, 19.04.2012, 10:33 | Message # 64 |
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World Builder
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| Ah, that's indeed a good point. I do think Calid should be renamed as Warm, but that leaves what to call Warm... Looking at a thesaurus, 'scorching', 'searing', 'blazing', and 'igneous' seem good terms to suggest the fact that these planets are similar to a fire in temperature.
I occasionally stream at http://www.twitch.tv/magistermystax. Sometimes SE, sometimes other games.
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Thursday, 19.04.2012, 23:16 | Message # 65 |
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Author of Space Engine
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| I may simply remove Calid and Cool classes, expanding Temperate to their temperature range...
In Russian, we have three good words to describe gradual increasing of temperature - тёплый (calid), жаркий (warm), горячий (hot). The dictionary shows that translation of all our words intersect with two major words in English - warm/calid and hot. Does English have only two words for gradation of heat?
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| Talyn | Date: Thursday, 19.04.2012, 23:40 | Message # 66 |
 Explorer
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| I am not an expert here, but in my opinion, those words generate some confusion , especially the word calid.
My suggestion is:
Temperate, warm and hot
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| apenpaap | Date: Thursday, 19.04.2012, 23:57 | Message # 67 |
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World Builder
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| I rather like calid and cool, they suggest that while the planet is not really suitable for humans, it is suitable for life in general and the difference with a human's temperature is not so big you'd die instantly. I guess calid could be renamed tepid, which is a rather more common word, but I still think warm is the category that is the real problem. Unfortunately, I don't really think there's a third word between warm and hot in english, though I think a word like searing or blazing would be a decent name for the warm class, while warm could probably better be applied for the current calid class.
I occasionally stream at http://www.twitch.tv/magistermystax. Sometimes SE, sometimes other games.
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| Talyn | Date: Friday, 20.04.2012, 00:47 | Message # 68 |
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Explorer
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| I only suggested the word temperate because in english it is the word that better describes a temperature range where we as humans, find it more comfortable to live in.
Scientifically, it is also a word used to describe one of the 5 earth zones as you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_zone
Maybe we need to re-think the scale for a future more precise classification as:
Irradiated/molten/searing
Hot
Warm (Calid is a synonym in English :/ )
Temperate
Tepid (not sure about this one because it is almost a synonym of temperate)
Cold
Frozen
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Edited by Talyn - Friday, 20.04.2012, 00:53 |
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Friday, 20.04.2012, 02:05 | Message # 69 |
 Cosmic Curator
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| I think that on the colder side of the scale that Temperate-Cool-Cold-Frozen is fine the way it is. But I agree that Warm is too easily confused with Calid, so I think that it should replace it. So on the hot side of the scale it should be Temperate-Warm-Hot-?
The main issue is if Warm replaces Calid, and Hot replaces Warm, then what replaces Hot? Searing and Scorching are decent candidates to replace Hot. Irradiated/Molten/Igneous would not work because they imply properties of the physical environment aside from temperature. Blazing isn't bad, but I haven't often encountered it as a lone description of temperature in spoken English; it is usually combined with another word when used (i.e. "blazing-hot"). Blazing generally identifies a superlative case of something hot or fast or even sexually attractive (anything that gets the adrenaline or hormones flowing  ).
Ultimately, Scorched is probably the most appropriate word in English for the hottest category. That would leave the scale like this:
Scorched
Hot
Warm
Temperate
Cool
Cold
Frozen
This makes the most sense from an English-language point of view and is much more intuitive than the current scale. Cool and Warm, and Cold and Hot, are antonyms of each other so they belong directly opposite each other on the scale.
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| Talyn | Date: Friday, 20.04.2012, 10:41 | Message # 70 |
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| Quote (HarbingerDawn) Ultimately, Scorched is probably the most appropriate word in English for the hottest category. That would leave the scale like this:
Scorched
Hot
Warm
Temperate
Cool
Cold
Frozen
I like this scale, but just to make it more clear, Cool would be a Planet like Mars, Temperate like Earth and warm like Venus?
I think it makes sense, since the 3 Planets are all "within the habitable zone". Then SpaceEngineer could expand the "Temperate" planets to their temperature range
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Friday, 20.04.2012, 12:11 | Message # 71 |
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Cosmic Curator
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| Quote (Talyn) Cool would be a Planet like Mars, Temperate like Earth and warm like Venus?
Orbital distance is not the determining factor in assigning a temperature class. Stellar irradiance, planetary albedo and atmospheric greenhouse effect all factor in. For example, if Venus did not have a strong greenhouse effect its temperature might be tolerable to humans. But because of its thick CO2 atmosphere it causes lead bricks to turn into puddles
The ranges that the temperature classes span now should probably be left as they are. If we narrow them too much then we would need too many names, and if we broaden them too much then they become meaningless.
So under the new scale, Venus would be Hot, Earth would be Temperate, and Mars would be Cool. No bodies in SpaceEngine's catalog for our solar system would be in the Warm category.
To convert SpaceEngine's current temperature scale to the one I listed, simply change Hot>Scorched, Warm>Hot, and Calid>Warm. You can fly around the universe looking at different worlds' temperatures and see if you think that the new scale works better for them, and just to get a feel for what the boundaries are if you want.
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Friday, 20.04.2012, 13:44 | Message # 72 |
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Author of Space Engine
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| I want to fix "hot" to most hot planets, as it's made in science now. But your scale is more logical. However, I can simply replace "calid" with "warm" and "warm" with "very warm", as it was in old versions, but single-word classname will be better.
BTW, "temperate" class has very narrow temperature range, only 50°. This looks like "earth-chauvinism". Maybe expanding it to cover "warm" and "cool" has sense. Temperate should cover planets that can support liquid water on the surface. Their average temperatures may vary from -50 to +150 °C, on the lower end planet have only little liquid water on the equator and all other surfaces are frozen, at the higher end, liquid water can exist only on the poles while all other surfaces are a dry desert (this looks like Titan, but there is liquid hydrocarbons insted of water). But subdividing this into 3 sub-classes has its own meaning... frozen planets are almost good to call "cool" and almost dry to call "warm".
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| HarbingerDawn | Date: Friday, 20.04.2012, 18:40 | Message # 73 |
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Cosmic Curator
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| Quote (SpaceEngineer) BTW, "temperate" class have very narrow temperature range, only 50°. This looks like "earth-chauvinism".
I think that the Temperate range should not be too wide. I think the way that it is now makes sense. The current basis for Temperate may be Earth-chauvinist, but really the entire scale is too. If we don't base the scale from a human perspective then what would be our frame of reference?
Quote (SpaceEngineer) I want fix "hot" to most hot planets, as it made in science now.
I understand the desire to keep with scientific terminology on this, and I completely agree that SpaceEngine should always stay true to real science. But since the rest of the scale is made to give the user a sense of perspective with regards to temperature, shouldn't the entire scale reflect this and be as intuitive as possible? If astronomers had a continuous and universal temperature scale describing worlds from 3000 K to 0 K then I would say we should use it, and that would be great. But to the best of my knowledge no such scale exists. So I think that if most of the scale has to be invented by you, then the entire scale should be, unless it can be easily combined with the existing terminology (i.e. "Hot").
I've tried to find ways of tastefully arranging scale-terms so that Hot can be at the top and integrate well with a 7-tier scale, but I don't think it can work. The only way would be if English had a common word between Warm and Hot, which unfortunately it does not. The word Torrid comes to mind, but it is hotter than Hot is, and is also rare, so again it would just cause confusion.
I don't think that the scale can remain with "Hot" at the top without seeming awkward. Hopefully someone will think of something though
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| SpaceEngineer | Date: Saturday, 21.04.2012, 00:01 | Message # 74 |
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| Well, what do you suggest for higher temperatures than "hot", if I move "hot" class down to Venus temperature?
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| apenpaap | Date: Saturday, 21.04.2012, 00:44 | Message # 75 |
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World Builder
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| I would suggest 'Infernal', 'Searing', 'Blazing', or something like that.
I occasionally stream at http://www.twitch.tv/magistermystax. Sometimes SE, sometimes other games.
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